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On May 16, 2022, AMAKA teamed up with Nike Future Movement Broadcast for a powerful and insightful discussion on mental health through the lens of Black and African women.

Hosted by Kelechi Okafor, the panel included
Lady Phyll, Jocelyn Yeboah-Newton, Lola Jaye and Tanya Compas.

Read the full transcript below, and watch the full video here.

Kelechi:\tHello, everyone.

Kelechi:\tWelcome to the AMAKA and Nike Future Movement Broadcast. I am your host Kelechi Okafor, and I'm here today with some incredible panellists. I've got Lady Phyll over here, I've Jocelyn Yeboah-Newton over here, I've got Lola Jaye over here, as well as Tanya Compas as well.

So, today we'll be talking about all things mental health, mental wellbeing and what we can all do together to kind of move it forward and move that conversation forward. I thought a great way to start would be for you to talk about yourselves a little bit and your experience of what it is or how do you envisage mental wellness – what does it mean to you first, you know, for us to start with mental wellness.

Keeping it nice and succinct, because we've got lots of conversations to still have, but I think it's a great place for us to start. So, Lady Phyll, I'll start with you. What does mental wellness mean for you?

Lady Phyll: So, I guess mental wellness means for me, being in my own space, having a safe and brave space for myself to be able to cry, to laugh. I always say mental wellness is more about having good mental wellness because there's poor mental wellness that you don't always detect. So, I guess it's safe spaces, it's, it's my happy place, it's just being able to be with me without restrictions. It's me being able to tap into others and just say, you know what, ‘I just need you’, because that creates a bit more of stability and guidance and wellness and support and love around me. And I guess my greatest wellbeing is just having my daughter around me.

Kelechi: And you mentioned about, you know, being able to say ‘I need you’, vulnerability, and asking for help. You’re head of a myriad of things that you do in terms of being an artist and a facilitator, and doing all of these things, you also provide, in terms of being head of safeguarding at your organisation at Abianda, you know, you know, having that. Safeguarding is important, being able to ask for help, but knowing that you're going to get that help, as well, is a major thing. We've seen so many different situations where safeguarding has not been in place and what that has meant. So, what does wellness, mental wellness mean for you?

Jocelyn: Interesting when you talk about safeguarding as a part of that. I guess there's two strands there for me; so mental wellness for me is being able to explore all the different facets of my being and be held in those spaces. Mental wellness is also knowing that I can be anchored by other people – so whether it's community or have people around me that if I'm not of my right self, of my well self, that there are trusted people that I can go to that can anchor me and support me in being able to access what I need to access.It's also about being able to be honest about what's going on for me, without shame or guilt or fear. And also, being able to tap into shadow work. But when we think about safeguarding as a part of that, for me, it's like we all have a duty to safeguard. Everybody has a duty to safeguard us all.

And so, it's something that requires a collective. Safeguarding as a part of, I guess mental wellness, is also knowing that you have trusted people – we've seen that not happen. You know, trusted people in positions of power, or positions of authority that we know are going to be able to send to your healing and your needs in that process. It should be a consensual process, whereby your needs are being met, but also you are, you are, you're involved in what that safeguarding process needs to be and all the actions that need to take place in order to protect you.

And when we see people not being involved in that process, that has a compounding impact on their mental wellness. So, for me, the two are kind of interlinked in some ways, whereby there's a collective, there's a collective response, there's also an individual response, because I have a responsibility to take care of myself, and I have the autonomy to do that. But I also know that there are other people around me who also have responsibility to care for me and know that I can ask for that. And the same means that I am a person in a position of authority and power that also has responsibility to care for others, whether it's someone who's vulnerable, whether it's a young person, or someone I love.

Kelechi: That's beautiful because there's a duality in that. Like we are responsible for ourselves, but we're also responsible for other people, and that's that sense of community that comes through. And you're talking about the consensual nature of this. Lola, you are a writer as well as a psychotherapist. Do you find that, you know, you've got your personal journey, I guess, of mental wellbeing as well, but then when you are working professionally, do you find that there is much consent, in terms of the industry, are people being invited to be participants in their own mental wellbeing and you know, how people interact with that?

Lola: I think, on a personal growth level, you have to be in charge of that. Because if we start looking to others to kind of validate that, we're going to be in trouble. So, it's about starting with yourself, so how, how am I going to be okay, what does that look like? And for me, that looks like having balance and feeling centred, not just saying ‘I'm centred’, but just feeling it as well. And also, I find that sometimes people can get this feeling of being overwhelmed, you know, we get that on a daily basis, really, especially in the work that we do, whatever job you do. So, if you're feeling overwhelmed, there's a sense of not being in control. So, to me, mental health wellbeing is about knowing that, okay, I don't have control over what's happening, and I have to be okay with that. I have to be okay with that, because I can’t control everything, I can't control what this person is saying to me, what this person is doing, what the world is doing around me. What can I control? And that just might be my space. How do I make that safe? How do I make it feel like I belong here? How do I remain centred?

Kelechi: That idea of safety, I think, is super important. And that's really how we ended up connecting Tanya, through your work with young girls. And you actively working to create safe spaces for them. What was the inspiration for that? Why specifically, that group, and how does it link with your idea and your experience of mental wellbeing?

Tanya: What was super important for me was to intentionally bring in people within my own network, which happened to be also intentionally Black women, to come and just, you know, deliver things around anything, anything, whatever it may be. I could actually come and do a tarot session with the girls.

You know, and I think, for me, it's because I know that I have grown into who I am by virtue of the community that I didn't grow up with; it's a community that I had to find and it was hard to find that community and but it was through that, that I’ve become the person I am now. So I'm like, let me make the journey easier for my young people by introducing these people that have been prominent in my life and have helped shift me whether they know it or not, but in many different ways. And that’s where I actually came about to bring Kelechi, and I was like, oh, because this is the second time I've brought you in and yep, got to bring you in again.

And I think for me, in terms of how I look at my own mental wellness, it's kind of a thing like, I really only, really understood, I think, in the past few months. I think it's that since being diagnosed with ADHD, and I'm finding out what that looks like, I think that it's, I intentionally find and create spaces for myself, essentially, but also [it] becomes a space for young people, but where I can be unmasked, where I don't have to be like, put on this, like, really, I didn't realise how heavy the mask of like conformity was, and trying to conform in this idea of like, I can't like fiddle, I can't do this or I can't, you know, all these things I can't do. And I think because of that, I actually lost who I was. And then, so now I'm like, I can find the spaces where I can be unmasked, which means I can be vulnerable. I can cry if I want to, it means I can actually, through that I've built a lot more stronger, intentional friendships and relations with people and also my young people as well, by virtue of it. So I think yeah, I didn't know what I was, I guess, why I was doing what I was doing back then. I just knew I wanted to do it. But now I really understand the why and I think actually, I was creating spaces that I needed for myself, but through the vessel of my youth work.

Kelechi: Thank you, and I guess we can create various spaces and you know, we're having this conversation, we're having this conversation about, you know, mental wellness, about mental health. We talk about mental health, we talk about all of these things, but the things that people don't want to talk about is mental illness. Everyone seems to want to avoid that word, they want to find every other way to talk about things, but they don't want to talk about that word. And we're thinking about that in proximity also to movement, to physical activity, whilst taking into account that people experience sports, you know, physical movement, all of that they experience it in very different ways. So, we'll start with you know, we've got this journey to go on in terms of this conversation and this discussion but coming back to you Tanya. You brought me in for a tarot session, then we did a twerk, I did a twerk session and then we did like a three/two-day workshop at my studio with pole dance, so you, of course it's a sports charity that you're working with, it's doing all of these things, but why specifically, do you think sports is integral in mental wellbeing of girls and women?

Tanya: I think that so many people look at sports as that past the age of like again 14 you can only proceed to do it, if you are excellent at it, if you're an athlete, if you're gonna make a career from it, and if you don't have that, then you do sports because you don't like your body, you want to lose weight and you will lose things in a very unhealthy manner. And I think that people have forgotten the idea that sports [are] actually [a] great place to build a community, it’s a great place to make friends.

So I put the girls through random exercises, random sports, things that will like, they might say they hate football, but next thing you know they actually love it because they’ve just synced it with maybe their PE teachers who maybe haven't made it the most fun experience or have maybe made sports something that only, that they only, you know, push the talented kids to do.

And it's, as opposed to making it something for everybody and I think that sports just, it breaks down the barriers, because everyone is going to be sweaty, everyone's gonna be looking awful by the end of the day, everyone’s gonna be in uncomfortable positions. I think it was even with you, I think we’ve done a chat, because it was so funny, in the twerk classes like the girls, some girls that again, aren't used to moving their bodies, have been told they can't move their bodies. Even in 2018 I’d done an International Women's Day event, so I brought 100 girls from Lambeth together and a call from Hackney, and Kelechi had done a twerk class for 100 girls, right.

And it was so funny because the teachers there were really uncomfortable at the beginning because they, you know, trying to get the girls to move their bodies but also teach it in a way that's outside of sexualised angle, and at the end we had a DJ with Remy Berg DJing, and the girls were either doing splits in the middle, and doing the most. And the teacher’s afterwards were like “I thought the girls only done this at school to dance with the boys, I didn’t know that they just like to dance by themselves”, and all the teachers said that, and I was like, this is the point of why we do this because it's not for them. And also there are schools there, five, six different schools and they will all dance together, they'll compete against each other on who can do the best splits.

And to see them understand that this is a place to music, dance, movement is actually what brings people together and actually breaks down these ideas that these people are hugely different from you. Because you have a shared a love of movement, dance, you can love one thing about it, but I think people forget that when they, when the aim of sports quote unquote, is always to be great, to lose weight, to do whatever, and it's always linked to these connotations. A lot of people rob themselves of the joy that they can find through movement or through sport which is why I think a lot of people our age now are seeking spaces of it, you know, even for your studios and stuff, to find that community because we don't really have those spaces anymore outside of work and career minds and I think they're super important.

Kelechi: That's so true. And so, for the rest of you like, how do you, how do you find… Lady Phyll why’re you making that face? [laughs]

Lady Phyll: I just found what you said so interesting about the young girls, because I guess, there’s something for me. I’m of a particular generation, whereby the way our bodies were policed. So, I was a gymnast at the age of nine, and I was also a trampolinist, but I developed really quickly, so, hips formed, breasts and, and I felt uncomfortable about being in a space. So, I then took myself away from that because I guess it's that sexualisation of how the body is looked at and then from there, there was no sports whatsoever.

But I just love that whole idea of, you know, explore, be free, but it's easy to be free if you have that understanding of being free. Culturally, we're also told ‘cover up’, ‘sit this way’, ‘hold yourself that way’, ‘cover your chest, you don't have to show so much’, ‘your front is showing’. So, you know, when you do explore and be expressive with your body and you're running, you're jumping, you're on a treadmill, you become conscious, if you're heavy breasted, if you’ve got big hips and big bums. So, you know, I guess, yeah, I’m probably now more excited as I’ve seen people in your classes, and I'm seeing young girls like my daughter expressing themselves through sport, playing football and you know, a lot more body out the clothes than in the clothes, but I don’t say anything about my daughter, and it's nice, it's nice. I wish I could be that free but I'm still getting around my body not being policed in a particular way.

Kelechi: And I wonder about like, does that stop for us though, does that does the policing stop? Or do we not defy the kind of constraints that's put on us by being policed in that way, to keep doing the things that we, you know, want to do anyway, like, how is your experiences then, in terms of that?

Jocelyn: Yeah, I find that's an interesting question, and just linking into this conversation around the freeness and whether the policing stops — I don't think policing does stop. I think it's about us actually defying the policing and saying, ‘this is who I am’. So, I started Our Naked Truths what, five years ago and I was, I was a life model for seven years prior to that and it was a big part of my journey and even realise it, I kind of fell into it. [I] had an aunt, I’m Ghanaian, and we have an aunt who was a life model. So, we'd go to her house, and it would be all of these amazing paintings of her naked body and I used to just be enthralled by them and amazed because, A, she looked like me, B, she was dark-skinned and thick set, and it wasn’t sexualised. It was beautiful. And also, you know, coming from a conserved Ghanaian family, that wasn’t what you did. So, it was also like this naughty aspect of like, ‘Wow, there’s like naked pictures in this house’.

And as I, in my late 20s, I had a really unhealthy relationship with my body, some of that because of how it was being policed, some of the experiences that my body had went through, and I wanted to change that relationship. And so, I spoke to my aunt around life modelling, and she talked about the process, what it was like for her, and for her it was quite an empowering, liberating process and it helped her to reclaim her body. So, I thought okay, let me let me enter into this and see what happens for me. And so, in doing so, in life modelling, it wasn't just sitting there and modelling for other people, but there was this liberation that happened. I was able to own my body even though you're still being objectified within a space and people are drawing you and I was typically usually the only Black person in that space too. But there was something quite liberating about owning the way that my body was positioned, being able to move my body how I choose to and other people celebrating it. Then I also became a bit bored of sitting in the space and realising that I'm the only Black person and also being the female Black objectified person in that space. So I created Our Naked Truths as a way to invite other Black women and non-binary people, to have their bodies celebrated, but also celebrate the stories that their bodies are carrying. Because, you know, when we think about the lack of freedom and we think about the policing of our bodies, and think about the traumas that our bodies hold, there’s stories behind them that we feel ashamed to talk about, and that shame is sitting in our bodies.

So, the space was initially set up just as a space to reclaim what our bodies are holding, reclaim what stories were behind them and also reclaim whatever our bodies look like. And it was so beautiful over time to see it was doing that and then some, because the more other people would come and see you know, Tanya is also modelled at the space as well.

But there’s just something about having seeing somebody else being so willing to free up themselves in front of everybody and share their story and share their body without shame and being celebrated — that inspires other people to do the same. And also, listening and seeing seeing that representation of knowing ‘that person’s body looks like mine’, and I may not see them on TV, I may not see them in certain magazines, but right now I can see they've got the same cellulite, their boobs are hanging the same way and they're celebrating themselves so why can I not do the same? So, I think for me, policing doesn't stop. We see that now. We see the amount of harm that women and girls are experiencing, we see it on a day-to-day basis that women can't even just walk down the street without being touched or harassed, you know. So, I think it's for us to defy what policing means, reclaim our spaces wherever we go. And I think being able to occupy a space within the freedom of what our bodies hold. And I feel like that's something that I've learned, like, it's interesting, I was a life model and doing Our Naked Truths and seeing the amount of people coming into that space and sharing their stories and bodies, but the more people share and the more was learning what freedom means to me, and how I want to occupy space in my body, so, I don’t think it stops, but the work of defying it needs to continue, and is constantly happening.

Kelechi: In every moment it’s shifting isn’t it? And I love that you brought up Our Naked Truths because it’s such a revolutionary practice, isn’t it, like to invite people in to share their bodies.

I think that if we think of the history of the Black woman's body and how it has pretty much helped create the Western world as we know it, and we're like, really, really going to go there and what have we been left with, you know, in terms of how we view ourselves and it's so interesting, because, you know, I've been, I have the pole studio and I run a lot and people kind of see me as like, you know, ‘she's a great personal trainer’. I've done all of these things, and it seems like I was encouraging body confidence when my body looked the way I wanted it to. Right, then when my body wasn't looking the way I wanted it to, when I experienced pregnancy, suddenly my dynamic with my body shifted. And around that time is when you were emailing me, you were like, “come and do a live”, and I said, “Jocelyn, if you don’t get out of my inbox…”, and I kept on coming with an excuse and you weren’t having it, you were like, “why don’t you just come and draw then?” And I said “I don’t wanna.”

But I really appreciated that because through just asking me to come and do it, I was being faced with a very clear truth in that I wasn’t comfortable, that was my naked truth. I wasn't comfortable with being naked any longer because my body wasn't the way that I had trained it to be and how I felt confident enough to present it to the world and I think that that's where the true bravery starts. Like, like you say that we're gonna keep being policed, but at what point do we reclaim what our bodies are and what they can do and, and surrender to that and live within that and also work from that place of celebration. Do you come across that in terms of psychotherapy, seeing people who, on the surface they might come up with these reasons for why they’re doing something, but this is happening underneath?

Lola: Absolutely. And I mean, just going back to the whole gym thing, I mean, we've all got gym stories. You going in a certain outfit, you know, you’ve got to wear the tight yoga pants or whatever, a tight bra top, and there's somebody there that's gonna come onto you or make a lewd comment it, and it can become quite isolating because you just then don’t want to go.

So, with lockdown happening and we’re obviously not going to the gym anymore. You know myself included, obviously a lot of us, we start to do exercises at home, you know in front of the TV, in front of YouTube and so forth. So I find that working with people, especially with depression, that is a prescription right there – exercise. You know regular exercise, you know, we know the story about the endorphins, you know, we know that hormones, good hormones, they’re expressed through that. But also the consistency of doing it, you know, because sometimes you might not want to get out of bed. But if you know that okay I’ve gotta go for a run, at 7am, 8am, it might just get you out, it might not, you know let’s face it, it might not, but there's just consistency with that is really important.

So lockdown, I think, made that easier when working with that. Because it's something that can be done at home without the so-called prying eyes, the policing that goes on with that. And any issues that the person may have with their body is just there with them in that room, and I know it doesn’t sound ideal, but we don’t live in an ideal world, you work with what you've got, basically. So that's how I found that, and I think part of that is me as well. I don't like going to the gym. You know, because I know what's going to happen. So I was quite happy to work in front of YouTube and so forth. So yeah, so yeah, probably not the answer that I should be giving…

Kelechi: It’s your answer, and I think that’s why we're having this discussion though. It’s about us being real because I think that we've seen so many different types of conversations around mental health and things like that and mental wellbeing like we said, where, you know, things are talked around and it's like, there is a way of still talking about something in a way that we are looking forward, like the Sankofa bird.

We can be moving forward while also still looking back, like what we have you know, what we have experienced also informs where we go from here.

Cultures and mental wellness, we all have our variety of cultures and backgrounds and things. How do you think conversations around mental health, but specifically mental illnesses or mental illness, how do you think those conversations have been in communities and are they changing?

Tanya:\t No. I think it’s like, I think for myself like, obviously I'm mixed race, mom’s white, my dad’s Black British, he’s born here. And my dad, you know as a Black man doesn't talk about emotions — that's just off the cards. And it’s interesting, my people always put white parents on a pedestal, as in, they understand everything, which isn't the case. So, like it’s an element where mental health was never something that’s discussed in my household. And I think even when, kind of, really when I got my ADHD diagnosis, I really realised, “Oh, it's actually still, my family’s still not at that point yet” – they are now. But at that point, they weren't and then because we're trying to question the validity of the diagnosis. Where did you get diagnosed? Who done it? Was it a real doctor? Was it this? Because they still centred themselves in the diagnosis, as a failure for my mother in particular, that I’ve got ADHD.

Because of ADHD and the way it's looked, it’s still linked to, you know, white boys throwing chairs at teachers, as opposed, to people look at ADHD in a sense of like, oh, it's, you know, all the times, but actually a lot of it is emotional, mental, mental side of things that actually is the hardest to navigate especially for women that, that would impact women more.

And I say no, in terms of why I don't think it's moved forward is because obviously through working with my young people and predominantly the young people that work at Exist Loudly, they are of Black African background, and they are still, the conversation is still hitting the glass ceiling.

And it's more so, I think the unfortunate thing is that now we are parenting our parents to learn about their own mental health and to understand or atleast to confront it in a way by virtue of them seeing us go to therapy or [saying] “hey I’m feeling actually depressed today”, [or] “actually my anxiety is quite bad” and us setting our own boundaries. It's like once our parents are able to decentre themselves from our boundaries and from the time or space, mainly from ourselves, and look at it as a way of preserving ourselves, I think these are my parents that they're now looking at ways to preserve themselves as well. Maybe it’s not therapy, maybe it’s not whatever, but I think, I see the same thing with my young people, they like, my mom doesn’t understand this, and I’m like you have to understand it for yourself first. And hope that through you creating practices yourself that it may, that your parents, they may not get it, they may not have the right words to say it, or to acknowledge it but they will see changes. I don’t think changes are happening in the grand scale of things, because I think there’s still so much stigma, there’s still, a lot of the mainstream media reflections around mental health aren’t reflective of our communities at all.

I think they are often coming from a white and cisheterosexual, British lens and therefore doesn't take into the you know the all the different facets of community that exists within, even when you talk about Black mental health is, is always spoken about in with a certain lens. It doesn’t encapsulate people that may have experienced homelessness, people that may be experiencing you know, transgender people, may be experiencing, people you know, people are going through childbirth, all these different ideas of, it's not moving as quickly as it should because those who have the power to change things are still refusing to acknowledge people in our communities, which is why the ownership is on ourselves, which is the unforunate thing, because there’s only so much we can all do to inflict the change, I guess, that needs to happen.

Lady Phyll: I guess, and I really agree with you, to a point, because I feel that young queer people especially, have taught me a lot more about wellbeing, mental health, poor and ill mental health, you know. Through the work that I do with UK Black Pride, and I’m talking community base, you know, we ran a survey, which was really asking the community questions. They told us, we wouldn't have no more than 500 people fill it out. We had over 1500, and the majority of them happened to be young and they were telling us, of course, you know, social media has helped because those who feel safe and brave enough to be able to tell their story, it's, you know, highlighted there, then the fact that you do have some funding, not enough, you're absolutely right, not enough funding. It's you know, it feels like we're able to talk about it a bit more, but it's breaking down the family, concepts of where we stayed silenced. I was not allowed to cry, ‘what are you crying for?’, even if you do get a bit of a beating, ‘what are you crying for?’. So, all of that, you know, trauma that you talked about we, we didn't find ways to unpack it. And when you don't find those ways, then that’s when it becomes really, really poor and really, really bad. So, I guess for us at UK Black Pride, what we’ve done, we’ve made sure that through the survey, we’ve received money that we then disperse back to our communities who are already doing that brilliant work.

We've seen how it's intensified. We've seen how, you know, funding has dwindled out. So the ways that we are wanting to help communities, our communities, is to make sure we redistribute the monies and the funding that we have, so that they can carry on doing that work. And I guess, as I said to you, young queer people, for me, people like yourself, Tanya, have taught me an awful lot about, you know what, let's talk about this. Let's also have the intergenerational conversations that we don't often have around the table. I want to be able to say to you, well, the reason why I may have this mask on is because I don't know how to peel it back. Because of how I am, but then when I see how you are with community, I'm like, damn, I can strip this off. Because you know what, it feels empowering. But it is a learning and an unlearning process before you can even start getting to that healing, but I think social media, young people, especially young queer people, and funding. If you don't have the funding and the resource, it makes it 20 times harder to address some of these things. And importantly, Black queer therapists and Black therapists.

Kelechi: No, that is super important. And you know, you've touched on so many things that I want us to go, come back to shortly, because we're talking about not being able to take that mask off, the stereotype of the strong black woman. We have to come back there but another pertinent thing that you mentioned was about funding, and I think that oftentimes we've talked about some, you know, some kind of fluffy conversations that happen around mental health and mental illnesses, specifically, and people almost tell you that affirmations and positive thinking is what gets you out of it, while ignoring systemic and institutional reasons that you could find yourself in these states in the first place. So of course funding, money is money's important in this like, having a roof over your head, being warm at night, like these things matter. But you know, that's what I wanted to put to you both of what do you think in terms of our cultures, and you know, you really lit up when we're talking, when I'm Lady Phyll mentioned about the intergenerational conversations. Like, healing isn't linear. So, do we go forward to heal ourselves to in a way come back?

Jocelyn: I feel like it's a parallel process to me. I lit up because I've recently been experiencing some of what we would call intergenerational healing, but it also just reminded me of; we've had some sessions on Our Naked Truths because a big part of it is just being able to bare yourself that you are, and I've always been quite curious about, predominantly most of the community of our Naked Truths is kind of Black and Brown, queer people aged between 16 and 35 — that's kind of the core group. But then we’ve also had some other women on the periphery who were like in their 50s. And we've had, I've been really inviting those women to come and share their bodies. We had a couple of sessions one, namely, I remember it, which was phenomenal, Karen Arthur, who was talking about this amazing woman, and she came and shared her body and her process was really about sharing what menopause had been like, but also what mental health had been like for her and she talks about openly on her platform, or did then, and it was really interesting, because, you know, most of the people in the in the room were younger than her. And what I what I saw happening was that she was a reflection of their experiences, but just from a different age group and vice versa. And I think that part is so important, you know, forgetting that there is a parallel process, we do need to, for the elders, it's also being able to go back and also confront some of those difficult truths.

Around complicitness, around silencing, around shame, also unlocking the doctrine of religion that has also informed the silencing of mental health and mental illness, you know, thinking oh, send that person to church, you know, this person is dealing with psychosis and thinking that going to church is going to heal them and that's it, you know, having to go back and face this really uncomfortable truth.

But then also for us, while we have access, we have to understand that for the younger generations that we have been able to benefit from the privilege of being able to access tools, resources, have these conversations, that our eldest didn't have. So there's a parallel process going on for both for both of us, actually. And I feel like within that there needs to be compassion, so like self-compassion for the things I didn't know, compassion for my elders for not being able to have the tools, the resources, the space to confront, because also we can't, we can't forget that they were also dealing with issues within the systemic, systemic oppressive structure, which means there was no space to even think about what mental health was. It had no space to think about your trauma, you had to pick up and go, you know, so I'm just having compassion around that. But then also having some boundaries around where there may be limitations in that healing. So for me, it's been quite powerful. Like recently I was invited to bring my mother for a discussion around motherhood by a friend of mine called Lcia, who is an incredible artist, community builder, just an incredible human, and there's a really powerful conversation. You know, I've had my own struggles with my mental health throughout my years, and my mom has been a part of that. And we've never really talked about what that journey was like for her. And it was so interesting for her to share what it was like and for her to apologise to me, she apologised to me, you know, like I didn't expect that. I’d actually had gone through the process of forgiveness because I understand that my mom didn't have the tools to understand what was going on. She, you know, she didn't have the tools or the resources and then to look back and for her in her reflection and listening to my journey to be like, the first thing I want to do is apologise because if I know what I know, now, I would have done things differently. So as much as I appreciate on a wider scale there is so much change that needs to happen, there's so much kind of intergenerational learning that will inform the collective healing, there are microcosms of this happening because the younger, the younger generation are becoming the reflections of the change that the elders need to see.

It's true like we are becoming that and we need to own that, but in our healing we're encouraging our elders and some, and also understanding that there are some elders that may not. There are some elders that won't have the space to go there and that is okay, we have compassion for them, but also boundaries where it might be harmful, where you know, some of the language they might be using might be feeling oppressive, or limiting or harmful, in your experience. We have boundaries, but yeah, I feel like there's a really powerful parallel process going on. And even within that, you know, funding, yes, we talk about funding but it's because it’s so crucial that now, because we don't see many Black therapists, and Black and Asian therapists network.

Yes, we have small cosms, you know, Black Minds Matter, we have the Black Women's Project that lasted up until last year because we ran out of funding, we've got the Beehive Frontline Therapists. There are other spaces that are providing Black practitioners from all different modalities to serve the community, but they’re also community funded most of them. We’re having to fund our own therapy, we're having to fund our own collective healing because we're not accessing the money or the tools or we're not accessing long-term therapy. You know, even our project the Black Women’s Therapy, we could only provide therapy for three months. That's what we could afford. Ideally, with, with this level of trauma and experiences that we've, we've had to navigate, we need we need for at least a year each, you know. An not always being being able to access that on the NHS. So I think that, to me, accessing funding for therapy is like a form of reparations. It’s a form of reparations and I encourage that all of the brands out there to be looking at projects within the community who are doing the work and fund those projects.

Kelechi: We need to talk about the people who are doing the work as well that brings us back to what we're talking about earlier, the strong Black woman narrative. How in your lives, have you found that, like you maybe you've wanted help, or maybe you know you wanted to tell somebody that this is going on but that trope of that strong Black woman and sometimes even the angry Black woman, has stopped you from saying what you need and you know what would help you to feel safer. I'm looking at you Lady Phyll.

Lady Phyll: And I don’t know why, but I'm really trying to hold it in right now. As we’re talking because this is such a real, this is our lives. Yeah, and we can laugh and kiki and I love it, because we also need that. But it’s our lives and it's, you ask where do we go to next? What do we do, and before we even come to that strong Black woman, I guess my job is I work internationally and I work with decision makers, policymakers, those that walk through the corridors of power, the power that we don't have, and it is about lobbying for the funding, it is about finding ways to tackle those systemic and structural inequalities from so many different angles, whether it's about young people in homelessness, whether it is about the way young people are sexualised, whether it is about the lack of funding for therapists, we’ve got to find the other way as well, because those who are in power regardless of whether we like them or we don't like them, we have to tackle them because they hold the purse strings and they hold the decision making power on what we do next. And if we don't tackle them in the House of Lords, in the House of Parliament, it makes our community work 20 times harder. And somebody said to me, “you know, you can't just do working with the House of Lords and with the parliamentarians, it's got to be about community grassroots”. I come from civil society community grassroots, but I'm telling you now, there is nothing more powerful than changing the trajectory of an MP’s mindset when you know that a vote has to take place on our bodies and our lives and our minds and what happens to us. So, I guess what I’m trying to say is that we've got to use that avenue as well, when we're talking about fighting inequality, we’ve got to use that avenue as well. Let's not forget about it.

Kelechi: Or ignore it because I think that's what it is. It’s kind of like, they’re not going to do what we want, so let’s just ignore… but you're right, we have to include even that facet in all the number of things that we’re doing.

Lady Phyll: But strong, strong Black women, I guess. I've always been told my whole working career, and I've been working for the last 26 years, for so many different institutions, and um, “oh you’re so strong. Oh, my gosh, you're brilliant.” And I guess the more people think that you're strong, is the less likely they’re willing to accept when you have a moment that is less than strong. And I'm not just talking about those institutions, I'm talking even amongst us.

I want to be held by my sisters, my people, when I‘m feeling tired, and often, we’re all going through so much that we don’t find time to be compassionate, we don’t find time to be kind. We don’t find time to love on one another. I guess you then just fall in line, and you just have to keep on going and keep on going until you drop, and you burn out. And then everyone, at your funeral, your wake, whatever it is; “oh my gosh, she was amazing, they were amazing”, and that’s not what we want to be.

Kelechi: I want my flowers while I’m alive.

Lady Phyll: And as you said, if you don't get them, grow them. I love that. I’ve never heard that.

Kelechi: I saw it on Instagram! It’s mine now! It’s so important, because I’ve been waiting, I feel like a lot of us end up waiting to be celebrated. And I read that, like, while you’re waiting for people to give you flowers, you should grow your own. And this is what we’re doing in spaces like this; growing our own flowers. Like what do we do next while we’re waiting for society to bring us the things, how do we grow our own things?

But in terms of what has your experiences been of that kind of strong Black woman narrative?

Lola: It is the most problematic phrase ever when it comes to Black women's mental health. When I was younger, oh, I owned it, that was my mantra. You know? “Yeah, I'm strong, it’s me against the world”, it didn’t get me very far. Yeah, it is so problematic in that sense that you're not allowed to be soft. You know? You know what, sometimes I want to be soft. And there’s another term that I use even today, and I make no apologies for it, and if I call you a Black queen, that’s great. But you know what sometimes I don’t want to be a Black queen, I want to be a princess. I want to wear a pink dress and I want to wear a tiara, but most importantly, I want to be soft. I would quite like it if you appreciate my softness. It’s not about me being hard-faced and having to take on the world. I’m tired.

Kelechi: And why? Because we would say that wouldn’t we, like I'm a strong Black woman, it’s me against the world but why did we end up in a situation where it’s you against the world? It shouldn’t have ever been that way. There are some things that we've normalised as a way of remaining resilient when actually they can be obstacles as well?

Jocelyn: And internalising it as an identity. And I've definitely done that. I’ve spent years of feeling like I needed to develop this strong persona. Because that was going to help me navigate life, that was going to define the trajectory of my career, that was going to define the community that I had around me, but as you said earlier, it doesn't take you very far. Because also what compounds these, the veneer of the strong Black identity or Black woman identity, behind this becomes layers, layers and layers of pain and vulnerability that doesn’t really have an outlet to go. Because there’s nowhere to share that, because you’ve got this veneer on top. So all that happens is this, it’s almost like an implosion. It doesn't take you very far.

And so, I think it's interesting when I, you know, and I also understand why that has happened, and I understand that I’ve got compassion for myself around that, and I understand, you know, other people that I see that are wearing that identity boldy in the workplace and feeling like there isn’t space to be soft. They can’t show when they’ve made a mistake, because God forbid if people see that they’ve made a mistake, they may get fired. They may get looked down on, they may not get that opportunity. So I completely understand that. We have to look at this from the lens of classism, racism of patriarchy, which creates like a triple consciousness. Think about it. You're having to go into a space and think from three different lenses; the lens of patriarchy, then the lens of racism, and also the lens of class, within your identity, and then trying to build up a wall in order to tackle all these things. That’s exhausting.

I understand why it’s there, but I also understand how problematic it is. What I’m loving now is that we are starting to own how problematic that strong Black woman identity is. We’re talking about it, we’re having this conversation. We’re bringing our vulnerability into different spaces. You know, I’m loving this new line young G’s are bringing. You know I’m not really young, I’m like 38.

You know, soft life, not everyday trauma. We know what our intergenerational trauma is, we’re aware of our own experiences of trauma, we're aware of like having to unpack the layers around adultification, hyper sexualisation. These are all deeply entrenched within our experiences. That’s all trauma, that’s all sitting in the body.

So, for me like, reclaiming my own identity is getting rid of the strong Black woman, I don't want to be strong. I want soft life, I actually want soft life. I want to be able to cry and be held in my softness. I want to be able to be in spaces, and Our Naked Truths has shown me that, so much, like the way we hold each other. We have talked about everything, any type of trauma, any type of mental health issue. We have talked about so much in that space. We've seen people implode in tears but it’s been held, because actually those tears have been celebrated.

And that’s another thing around when we’ve shown our tears we've also been met with shame, or we've been met with guilt or even fear — people don't know how to manage it. We’ve got the strong ones crying, if there crying what do I do? You know like, we need to start encouraging more spaces where we can be held and I think that is slowly happening. We’re slowly starting to see people being honest about their journeys on social media. I mean that’s not entirely for me, I don’t want to put everything out there, but like, it’s beautiful that I know that my nieces can look online and there are other people that look like them you know, who are sharing their vulnerability. The same people that you look up to because you know they've got an amazing following, also shed tears, because it's hard sometimes. And it doesn’t take away from their strength. Actually, it’s a part of their beautiful multifaceted prism of being. So, I feel like there are shifts there, we need to talk about it more, and also take accountability when we’re also, because we all tap into that, old behaviour isn’t it. It’s almost like an old addiction, like I’ve tapped into it sometimes of having to create this veneer, and we realise no that’s not what it is right now, I’m not good today actually.

Lady Phyll: How can we make that easy though, how do we make these spaces easier for us to talk about it. Right now I feel safe and I feel comfortable, you know, a tear has fallen, and I don’t feel any shame or guilt, but I'll go into a different setting, and trust me I will not cry. You will believe that I am cold, stony face and I don't move because I don't feel comfortable. How do we create that change?

Jocelyn: To sustain a Black run organisation that are working first hand with the trauma and the experiences of Black people is exhausting. And when you don’t have the funding that can help you sustain or have big teams to help you continue the work, and you’re also having recognition trauma with some of the experiences that are brought up in this space, because you too are a Black person, you’ve navigated trauma you know.

It gets to the point where you burn out or there needs to be breaks and then also that fear of “Oh crap, we haven't been running for a certain amount of time”. You know, we don't have, we don't have the content and if the people brands don't see the content they won't fund us. And you know, forgetting actually in those breaks, maybe thinking about what did that person need? And in those breaks maybe there’s opportunities for organisations to come and say “what can we do to help you sustain your project?”. And that’s what I would love to see more of; sustainable funds.

Kelechi: And I guess as we come to a close all of this because there's still so much that we could be here for days because there's so much, because in my mind, I'm just like, we could see where we could go but it's okay, we stay here, we stay with this.

But I love the idea about sustaining spirit. As we close on that then, what would you say is a tip of how we go about sustaining spirit or sustaining community, whichever one speaks to you the most. What is the thing that you leave us with because we're all doing things, UK BlackPride, Our Naked Truths, like your work as a writer as well as being a psychotherapist, Exist Loudly, we’ve got so many things that’s happening.

We know we’re going to take this away and do something, but what would you kind of offer up and be like, you know what, I leave you with that and get on with it?

Tanya:\t I think for me, it would just be, I think my big greatest learning was to go back to what I enjoyed most, which when I use to deliver Generation Storm in Brixton, which is stop overcomplicating things (inaudible).

But actually, I've just gone back to taking them out for lunch, just go to the theatre, things that really to like and find the connection. So Black ticket projects you provide through your free theatre tickets... And things like this that, I love, it brings me joy. I’m not working I’m just bringing them there and it’s spaces in which, for me as well, can just have a break and just pause and press pause and lose yourself into another experience and I think that helps to say my spirit is by virtue of not overcomplicating things and knowing that sometimes the bare minimum is actually, that is that one drop in the ocean for a young person that will shape change and shift that whole entire life. Just by just without having to do so much just kind of really looking and hone in on what is it that you love doing — focus on the work you love doing and then create spaces for that and the people that love the same things will come and they’ll find you, rather than try and do the things that you think other people aren't doing. Because that is where you lose yourself. And that's where you lose your joy, which means you won't ever sustain the work.

Kelechi: Oh, that is the word, come through, preach Tanya, damn. Alright. Take it easy. I love it, thank you for that, I needed that word. What about you Lady Phyll, because I see you’re just chilling?

Lady Phyll: Do I seem calm? I'm quite a calm and composed person because I know what my purpose is. And I know what I have to do and I'm listening to each one of you and feeling so nourished by what I'm hearing. I guess for me, I'd love to see, and I've always talked about a Black Almanack, a Black yellow pages, because all of these amazing organisations that are doing great work, that people don’t know about, like Encon, like Micro Rainbow, like, you know, people don't know how to even reach them. And I just want to say we got to remember our refugees and asylum seekers, especially, or even our queer refugees and asylum seekers and the traumas that their bodies have even gone through to get to a particular country of safety. So I'd love to see that yellow pages, but what I [am] going to continue to do is fight from the inside out within those institutions that are difficult, problematic and challenging in order for us to start breaking down, how we are seeing in the eyes of those who hold power, and one day we'll be able to dismantle the whole bureaucratic, antiquated system and that's what I want to do.

Kelechi: Lady Phyll for prime minister, I’m ready.

Lady Phyll: I’ve got so many skeletons in my closet, that’s not happening. Oh my gosh, my mom would send me back to Ghana at this age.

Kelechi: What about you Jocelyn?

Jocelyn: Yeah, I’m sitting here thinking and I’m like, for me, it's around what really resonated for me is sustaining spirit because in order for me to sustain, if I'm sustaining my spirit, then I can help sustain community. And where I'm at now, in my careers and training, I'm training as a psychotherapist as well, on my second year. I've really been peeling back the layers and deconstructing the identity of the strong Black woman and what it means to hold space and, and be a facilitator and actually hold myself, and going back to the basics of asking Jocelyn what she needs and being able to ask loved ones, this is what I need from you in order to support me in my journey, so I think for me, yeah, around sustaining spirit. It's just going back to the core basics of who I am and stripping all of it back, knowing that as I reconstruct, then I'm going to be able to sustain community and put out in the best way that I need to. So for me, it's sustaining spirit to inform sustaining community.

Kelechi: You are that fountain that gives you know and brings the life to the things. That's so true, thank you. Lola?

Lola: And I think following from that, sustaining spirit for me, means what I'm doing now and I’m in a blessed position where I write, I write books, I'm on my seventh book now.

Where was I? And the theme of the books is really about exposing history, I’m historical fiction writer, and we know that our history has not always been pretty, but I always also like to add that, you know, our history is not just about trauma of colonisation and slavery and so forth, that’s just a small chapter in there. But I like to show that in my writing, and also I like to show healing in it as well. This is not me just doing trauma porn. I'll show that part. But there has to be a resolution and that resolution is always going to be joy. I get to construct my own world in that sense. I first acknowledge that there is trauma and there is racism, there is so much hell but also there is heaven. There is so much joy, there is Black love. There is laughter. So I get the privilege of being able to do that. Whilst in the other job, I get to work with real people. So you get imaginary people and real people and they get to combine somewhere. And I think that's such a privilege that I've been given, and that balances me and that sustains me.

Kelechi: That is a word, about the imagination and us being able to reframe and recalibrate all the things that have been done unto us by using the power of our imagination. I think that's one of the things about working the way that we do in the society that we work in, that we've tried to navigate is that if we are worked to the bone, we have no time for rest, thus we have no time for imagination. And actually imagination is the thing that that creates the world that we want to be in you know, and that's why giving us these things, seeds, that you read the book and it’s there in your mind now like, there could be a different outcome to all of this.

So in terms of sustaining spirit I think it is as you say, it's about imagination. Like I love experiencing Tarot, I love experiencing traditional Yoruba spirituality through those things, through retracing my steps, in this physical experience, I've been able to discover so much more. I always talk about, I love running. And you know, sometimes I'm careful about when we have conversations about movement and wellness, that it can sound really ableist, because it comes down to what I'm privileged to be able to do right, but there's also breathwork. There's so much power in stillness. And I find that there's prayers in every moment like showing up as wholly as you can and then when you are trying to show up as wholly as you can you notice all of the environments that don't want you to show up so you shut down. So as much as I can I really honour myself in that way like how can I be as much of myself while honouring the selfhoods of everybody else around me, like really listening, really paying attention to like what is being said, who are they introducing me to in themselves.

That sustains my spirit and thus, it's like, it’s regenerative because then you can sustain others as well. And so many people, I guess, based on the podcast, based on the poll studio. People tell me how much I've helped them get through really hard times. And while I don't want to wear that as a burden, the only way I can wear it as an achievement is if I know that there's space for me to offload my own burdens. So having, you know, that’s what sustains me, being able to go to therapy, being able to learn about the human condition through the tarot cards, like seeing all 78 different thing[s] and interpreting them, because also I was trying to strengthen my intuition, which, like we're taught so much to not trust ourselves that a lot of what we're actually doing is learning to be in relationship with ourselves.

That's really what we are doing in different ways, and I find these practices help me to trust myself more and you can only be confident in something you trust. You know, you can only vouch for something that you trust and for me to be able to vouch for myself, true self confidence, I also have to trust myself. Like oh, if I feel like I want to stay in bed today, trusting that that is the right decision that I've made, if I want to go out into the world of trusting that I've made that right, but a lot of times we've been doing things from a place of like dissonance and just moving and like just letting the body move beyond and letting the spirit and the mental state stay behind and letting them find some kind of like calibration, some kind of amalgamation, some kind of equilibrium, I’ve found that it’s allowed me to have a more peaceful life even when to the rest of the world it looks like maybe I'm getting lots of like attack or abuse online. I actually have a state of stillness because I’ve discovered there is my purpose as you mentioned, so I can be fine in the knowledge that I’m being sustained in so many different ways and I’m being nourished from so many different wells. And then there's the ultimate eternal well and that's enough for me, I don't have to be thirsty waiting for the world to nourish me, you know.

Well literally, that is it from us, thank you so much, Lady Phyll, thank you so much, Jocelyn. Thank you so much, Lola. Thank you so much, Tanya. I’m Kelechi Okafor and this has been AMAKA and the Nike Future Movement Broadcast. I hope that you've enjoyed our discussion because we were talking about all of the things, and I don't know if we'll see you soon, but you'll see yourself thank you!

_END_

AMAKA and Nike Future Movement’s Broadcast’s event was hosted on 16 May, 2022, by PRIM in their Reading Room at the Not Just Another Store space.

PRIM is a unique digital platform which is dedicated to connecting, educating and sharing the stories of the African, Caribbean and Afro-Latinx community through a wide variety of mediums including written stories, video readings, films, documentaries and photography. Also, PRIM is a dedicated safe space for the Black Queer community and beyond.

Not Just Another Store is an innovative Black-owned conceptual retail space that detaches itself from the restrictions and norms placed upon existing retail spaces. Collaborations are at the heart of its concept with a focus on community building and partnering up with a multitude of creatives and designers to curate original events, installations and exhibitions.

Nike FM donated to PRIM.

To watch the full video, click here.

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